Comments on: Cultural Bias http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2009/12/cultural-bias/ Email, Delivery, Spam and more Wed, 08 Feb 2012 05:06:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Chris Wheeler http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2009/12/cultural-bias/comment-page-1/#comment-3509 Chris Wheeler Fri, 18 Dec 2009 21:27:48 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1093#comment-3509 @Neil - There is outcry. It's just not done in a way that's highly publicized when staring revenue in the face and for reasons you mention (such as legal, which you mentioned, or a bullying reputation). Leading by example takes a long time. But, there are mailing lists, groups, committees, etc. that those of us really committed to doing the right thing by the recipient (and thus the responsible ISPs) participate in. In my role, I am very vocal internally as well to ensure that folks at least cannot claim ignorance of best practices. One day at a time... @Al - Ditto. And makes for a good laugh. :-) @Mike - Thanks for the comment. It is a matter of either shifting (if not already the thought model) or maintaining (if it is) the idea that in the long term strong standards when vetting clients, backchannel communications between trusted partners at other "good" ESPs, and keeping a close on their sending practices when onboarded justifies the loss of revenue in the short term. @Neil – There is outcry. It’s just not done in a way that’s highly publicized when staring revenue in the face and for reasons you mention (such as legal, which you mentioned, or a bullying reputation). Leading by example takes a long time. But, there are mailing lists, groups, committees, etc. that those of us really committed to doing the right thing by the recipient (and thus the responsible ISPs) participate in. In my role, I am very vocal internally as well to ensure that folks at least cannot claim ignorance of best practices. One day at a time…

@Al – Ditto. And makes for a good laugh. :-)

@Mike – Thanks for the comment. It is a matter of either shifting (if not already the thought model) or maintaining (if it is) the idea that in the long term strong standards when vetting clients, backchannel communications between trusted partners at other “good” ESPs, and keeping a close on their sending practices when onboarded justifies the loss of revenue in the short term.

]]> By: J.D. http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2009/12/cultural-bias/comment-page-1/#comment-3506 J.D. Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:02:56 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1093#comment-3506 Seth Godin just posted an article which seems entirely relevant to this discussion: http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2009/12/think-like-me-agree-with-me.html Seth Godin just posted an article which seems entirely relevant to this discussion:

http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2009/12/think-like-me-agree-with-me.html

]]> By: Mike Hillyer http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2009/12/cultural-bias/comment-page-1/#comment-3504 Mike Hillyer Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:22:25 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1093#comment-3504 Great article Chris. In my work I get to sit down with a lot of "Good" ESPs and it really helps to realize that they are staffed with individuals trying to do the right thing. Of course, I'm dealing with a lot of the technical savvy people so that may impact the profile of the ESP people that I typically deal with. And there are good ESPs out there. I've talked to ones that won't go near a waterfalling deal with a ten-foot pole, knowing full well that if another ESP comes to them to send something it's not going to be pretty, and I even know some who have automation in place to filter mail on egress, halting a customer campaign that trips the filters (that's not the norm but shows that some take their reputation very seriously). As a technology guy, I think a certain amount of the issues with ESPs stepping up has to do with technology, they have to get beyond the basics of assemble and send and use better tools to ensure that what they send maintains their reputation as a sender. Of course I'm a little biased in that regard but it's producing results. Great article Chris. In my work I get to sit down with a lot of “Good” ESPs and it really helps to realize that they are staffed with individuals trying to do the right thing. Of course, I’m dealing with a lot of the technical savvy people so that may impact the profile of the ESP people that I typically deal with.

And there are good ESPs out there. I’ve talked to ones that won’t go near a waterfalling deal with a ten-foot pole, knowing full well that if another ESP comes to them to send something it’s not going to be pretty, and I even know some who have automation in place to filter mail on egress, halting a customer campaign that trips the filters (that’s not the norm but shows that some take their reputation very seriously).

As a technology guy, I think a certain amount of the issues with ESPs stepping up has to do with technology, they have to get beyond the basics of assemble and send and use better tools to ensure that what they send maintains their reputation as a sender. Of course I’m a little biased in that regard but it’s producing results.

]]> By: Al Iverson http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2009/12/cultural-bias/comment-page-1/#comment-3502 Al Iverson Fri, 18 Dec 2009 16:56:58 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1093#comment-3502 As somebody mentioned to me the other day, it's a shame that 95% of deliverability folks give the rest of us a bad name. As somebody mentioned to me the other day, it’s a shame that 95% of deliverability folks give the rest of us a bad name.

]]> By: The Other Barry http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2009/12/cultural-bias/comment-page-1/#comment-3500 The Other Barry Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:43:25 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1093#comment-3500 You did, and that is progress. :) The next step is to see if the folks in the ESP community can really wrap their heads around the myriad of other legitimate uses of mail. At the moment, even the folks trying to be helpful still only suggest things that specifically help ESPs. Not out of selfishness or maliciousness, just due to an incomplete perspective. Changes to a system as large and diverse as mail have to take all of those uses into account, or they just create more problems. You did, and that is progress. :) The next step is to see if the folks in the ESP community can really wrap their heads around the myriad of other legitimate uses of mail. At the moment, even the folks trying to be helpful still only suggest things that specifically help ESPs. Not out of selfishness or maliciousness, just due to an incomplete perspective. Changes to a system as large and diverse as mail have to take all of those uses into account, or they just create more problems.

]]> By: Neil Schwartzman http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2009/12/cultural-bias/comment-page-1/#comment-3499 Neil Schwartzman Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:22:24 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1093#comment-3499 "ESPs have been given a bad name in the industry as the aggressors, those who are willing to use and abuse the email ecosystem to get money with no respect to the common rules of “best practices” or recipient perspective. [...] This is simply untrue. But, there are a lot of senders who do fit into this category, unfortunately." ESPs, some of them, have *earned* a bad name in the industry. Why do their peers tolerate, cooperate and profit from waterfalling? Where is the public outcry about such abusive behaviour (waterfalling, for the uninitiated, is when a sender or ESP knowingly takes a very bad list and list-washes it by mailing it over 3rd-party systems, generally cooperative or unwitting ESPs. The list owner usually claims bandwidth constraints or some other claptrap)? Annalivia Ford was blunt, as was I about the need for Senders and particularly mass/aggregate senders to step up. http://www.annaliviaford.com/2009/12/shell-game.html http://www.circleid.com/posts/i_dont_give_damn_about_my_bad_reputation_joan_jett/ Where is the push, from the ESP end of things for more stringent BCPs and more importantly, for their widespread and strict adoption? Where is the public ostracism of bad players? Heck, where is the private ostracism? Sigh, yes, I know, everyone is afraid to be sued for saying the wrong thing. Idea: Say something fact-based like "ESP X just approached us to do some sending on their behalf" on some of the discussion lists, as a caveat for the unaware. I disagree with Steve that the issue is primarily who represents a given entity; while that may be the crux of the communication problem, it isn't at the root of the fundamental issues. Abusive behaviour such as what has been mentioned in countless blogposts among a handful of people, all referenced on this blog, are the core issue. As Anna & I said, it is time for the ESPs to step up, not merely wish we could all just get along. We clearly aren't, and some concrete actions must be taken before we will. => The opinions contained herein are my personal stance and may not reflect the viewpoint of Return Path Inc.<= “ESPs have been given a bad name in the industry as the aggressors, those who are willing to use and abuse the email ecosystem to get money with no respect to the common rules of “best practices” or recipient perspective. [...] This is simply untrue. But, there are a lot of senders who do fit into this category, unfortunately.”

ESPs, some of them, have *earned* a bad name in the industry.

Why do their peers tolerate, cooperate and profit from waterfalling? Where is the public outcry about such abusive behaviour (waterfalling, for the uninitiated, is when a sender or ESP knowingly takes a very bad list and list-washes it by mailing it over 3rd-party systems, generally cooperative or unwitting ESPs. The list owner usually claims bandwidth constraints or some other claptrap)?

Annalivia Ford was blunt, as was I about the need for Senders and particularly mass/aggregate senders to step up.

http://www.annaliviaford.com/2009/12/shell-game.html
http://www.circleid.com/posts/i_dont_give_damn_about_my_bad_reputation_joan_jett/

Where is the push, from the ESP end of things for more stringent BCPs and more importantly, for their widespread and strict adoption?

Where is the public ostracism of bad players? Heck, where is the private ostracism? Sigh, yes, I know, everyone is afraid to be sued for saying the wrong thing. Idea: Say something fact-based like “ESP X just approached us to do some sending on their behalf” on some of the discussion lists, as a caveat for the unaware.

I disagree with Steve that the issue is primarily who represents a given entity; while that may be the crux of the communication problem, it isn’t at the root of the fundamental issues.

Abusive behaviour such as what has been mentioned in countless blogposts among a handful of people, all referenced on this blog, are the core issue.

As Anna & I said, it is time for the ESPs to step up, not merely wish we could all just get along. We clearly aren’t, and some concrete actions must be taken before we will.

=> The opinions contained herein are my personal stance and may not reflect the viewpoint of Return Path Inc.<=

]]> By: Chris Wheeler http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2009/12/cultural-bias/comment-page-1/#comment-3495 Chris Wheeler Fri, 18 Dec 2009 07:54:23 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1093#comment-3495 Ah yes. Although I did mention that ISPs have a deluge of spam to fight off (and by spam, I wasn't necessarily referring to ESP induced email). :-) Ah yes. Although I did mention that ISPs have a deluge of spam to fight off (and by spam, I wasn’t necessarily referring to ESP induced email). :-)

]]> By: The Other Barry http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2009/12/cultural-bias/comment-page-1/#comment-3492 The Other Barry Fri, 18 Dec 2009 04:20:19 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1093#comment-3492 He means the entire article discusses email as if it is comprised only of ESPs and ISPs. This is the cultural bias of ESPs. They tend to forget all the other places that mail comes from and goes to. He means the entire article discusses email as if it is comprised only of ESPs and ISPs. This is the cultural bias of ESPs. They tend to forget all the other places that mail comes from and goes to.

]]> By: Chris Wheeler http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2009/12/cultural-bias/comment-page-1/#comment-3491 Chris Wheeler Fri, 18 Dec 2009 03:34:11 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1093#comment-3491 What do you mean? What do you mean?

]]> By: The Proverbial Barry http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2009/12/cultural-bias/comment-page-1/#comment-3484 The Proverbial Barry Thu, 17 Dec 2009 20:36:59 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1093#comment-3484 Good headline. This entire article is a fine example of cultural bias. Good headline. This entire article is a fine example of cultural bias.

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