Comments on: With great wisdom… http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2010/03/with-great-wisdom/ Email, Delivery, Spam and more Wed, 08 Feb 2012 05:06:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: J.D. http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2010/03/with-great-wisdom/comment-page-1/#comment-3967 J.D. Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:54:48 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1308#comment-3967 Tara, I haven't ever heard anyone from an ISP saying they have a deliverability problem -- but I've heard a lot of 'em say they're working on their outbound spam problem. The difference in terminology reveals the difference in approach. But that's not really what the article was about.... Tara, I haven’t ever heard anyone from an ISP saying they have a deliverability problem — but I’ve heard a lot of ‘em say they’re working on their outbound spam problem. The difference in terminology reveals the difference in approach.

But that’s not really what the article was about….

]]> By: Tara Natanson http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2010/03/with-great-wisdom/comment-page-1/#comment-3965 Tara Natanson Mon, 08 Mar 2010 17:07:48 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1308#comment-3965 The part of this that confuses me is that JD seems to think that ESPs are the only ones who care about or even use the word Deliverability. Seems like a sweeping conclusion to me. ISPs send plenty of mail and sometimes even care if it gets where it is supposed to go. I worked for a large ISP in 1999 and everything wasn't "just fine". Large portions of our network were blocked by lists such as SPEWS which were widely used at the time. The part of this that confuses me is that JD seems to think that ESPs are the only ones who care about or even use the word Deliverability. Seems like a sweeping conclusion to me. ISPs send plenty of mail and sometimes even care if it gets where it is supposed to go. I worked for a large ISP in 1999 and everything wasn’t “just fine”. Large portions of our network were blocked by lists such as SPEWS which were widely used at the time.

]]> By: Jaren Angerbauer http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2010/03/with-great-wisdom/comment-page-1/#comment-3964 Jaren Angerbauer Mon, 08 Mar 2010 16:39:51 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1308#comment-3964 JD, you are too kind. Did you get that box of meat yet? :) --Jaren JD, you are too kind. Did you get that box of meat yet? :)

–Jaren

]]> By: Jeff Macdonald http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2010/03/with-great-wisdom/comment-page-1/#comment-3959 Jeff Macdonald Sat, 06 Mar 2010 17:15:24 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1308#comment-3959 I've been at e-Dialog since Oct 2000. They were calling themselves ESPs then and I remember reading articles about them at least a year before that and I'm fairly certain they were calling themselves an ESP then too. I don't think the actual date is important. However, I strongly believe that those outside the ESP industry took a while to acknowledge the ESP industry itself. It is probably true for any new industry that recognition is much later than formation. The introduction of anti-spam techniques and the widespread adoption of them has caused the reliability of email to drastically drop. So while this statement "it’s a shock to realize that people sent and received email and everything was just fine long before the segment of the industry that you work in had even been imagined." may be true, it is also true that the reception of email has changed dramatically since then. I’ve been at e-Dialog since Oct 2000. They were calling themselves ESPs then and I remember reading articles about them at least a year before that and I’m fairly certain they were calling themselves an ESP then too. I don’t think the actual date is important. However, I strongly believe that those outside the ESP industry took a while to acknowledge the ESP industry itself. It is probably true for any new industry that recognition is much later than formation.

The introduction of anti-spam techniques and the widespread adoption of them has caused the reliability of email to drastically drop. So while this statement “it’s a shock to realize that people sent and received email and everything was just fine long before the segment of the industry that you work in had even been imagined.” may be true, it is also true that the reception of email has changed dramatically since then.

]]> By: laura http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2010/03/with-great-wisdom/comment-page-1/#comment-3954 laura Fri, 05 Mar 2010 16:55:12 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1308#comment-3954 Not to put words in JDs mouth, but I think he was talking more about ESPs as an entity and a market force more than just folks who sent email. Certainly even when I was handling abuse@<verylargenetworkprovider> back in 2000/2001 there wasn't really the concept of an ESP being different than a bog standard ISP. ESPs as a entity came a little later than that. With that being said, though, I was reading headers and fighting spam before '97 and my entrance into public spamfighting and negotiation was right around then. There was a call between Sanford Wallace and a group of anti-spammers that happened sometime in late '97 that I participated in. http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/1998/04/11577 is a link to an article about the call. I was one of the 10 "prominent anti-spammers" involved. There was also the meeting between the DMA and a different group of anti-spammers that happened around that time as well. Not to put words in JDs mouth, but I think he was talking more about ESPs as an entity and a market force more than just folks who sent email. Certainly even when I was handling abuse@ back in 2000/2001 there wasn’t really the concept of an ESP being different than a bog standard ISP. ESPs as a entity came a little later than that.

With that being said, though, I was reading headers and fighting spam before ’97 and my entrance into public spamfighting and negotiation was right around then. There was a call between Sanford Wallace and a group of anti-spammers that happened sometime in late ’97 that I participated in. http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/1998/04/11577 is a link to an article about the call. I was one of the 10 “prominent anti-spammers” involved. There was also the meeting between the DMA and a different group of anti-spammers that happened around that time as well.

]]> By: George Schlossnagle http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2010/03/with-great-wisdom/comment-page-1/#comment-3952 George Schlossnagle Fri, 05 Mar 2010 16:42:35 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1308#comment-3952 Yesmail, e-dialog, and DI all founded in '97 iirc. Whitehat in '99 (at least according to the website, though it jives alright with my memory of the time). Yesmail, e-dialog, and DI all founded in ’97 iirc. Whitehat in ’99 (at least according to the website, though it jives alright with my memory of the time).

]]> By: Suresh Ramasubramanian http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2010/03/with-great-wisdom/comment-page-1/#comment-3949 Suresh Ramasubramanian Fri, 05 Mar 2010 05:08:09 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1308#comment-3949 Mailing list providers to be sure - lsoft.com, lyris etc. For a bit before Laura. Not so ESPs .. with whitehat.com being among the earliest, if my memory serves me right. Mailing list providers to be sure – lsoft.com, lyris etc. For a bit before Laura.

Not so ESPs .. with whitehat.com being among the earliest, if my memory serves me right.

]]> By: George Schlossnagle http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2010/03/with-great-wisdom/comment-page-1/#comment-3948 George Schlossnagle Thu, 04 Mar 2010 17:43:09 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1308#comment-3948 Is this comment (ESPs didn't exist when Laura entered the industry) technically true? Certainly there are some that founded back in the back half of the 90s (whole bunch of the big guys founded circa '97, lsoft in '94 (though I don't recall if they hosted then as well)). I missed MAAWG this time around, so was the context that they didn't call themselves ESPs, or that it wasn't recognized as a category then? No arguments on the broader points of the churn in the marketing industry and how that can create alot of ill will as one group is constantly having to learn the same basic lessons again and again. Also interesting to me is the trend of people moving from ISPs to marketing/b2c communication arena, and figuring out what that actually means for the industry. Is this comment (ESPs didn’t exist when Laura entered the industry) technically true? Certainly there are some that founded back in the back half of the 90s (whole bunch of the big guys founded circa ’97, lsoft in ’94 (though I don’t recall if they hosted then as well)). I missed MAAWG this time around, so was the context that they didn’t call themselves ESPs, or that it wasn’t recognized as a category then?

No arguments on the broader points of the churn in the marketing industry and how that can create alot of ill will as one group is constantly having to learn the same basic lessons again and again. Also interesting to me is the trend of people moving from ISPs to marketing/b2c communication arena, and figuring out what that actually means for the industry.

]]> By: David Romerstein http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2010/03/with-great-wisdom/comment-page-1/#comment-3946 David Romerstein Thu, 04 Mar 2010 05:50:35 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1308#comment-3946 I think "deliverabilitators" may be the worst word ever Can we just shorten it to "debilitators", please? Other than that, yes. More of this, please. I think “deliverabilitators” may be the worst word ever Can we just shorten it to “debilitators”, please?

Other than that, yes. More of this, please.

]]> By: The Proverbial Barry http://blog.wordtothewise.com/2010/03/with-great-wisdom/comment-page-1/#comment-3945 The Proverbial Barry Thu, 04 Mar 2010 00:11:58 +0000 http://blog.wordtothewise.com/?p=1308#comment-3945 bah. wheres the cynical grumpy JD we all know an love? bah. wheres the cynical grumpy JD we all know an love?

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